Monday, January 25, 2010

Οι ΕΚ αρχές μοίρασαν παράνομους τίτλους ιδιοκτησίας ΤΚ περιουσιών σε πρόσφυγες;


Πρόσφατα η Cyprus mail μετά την απόφαση Orams έγραψε το εξής:

Greek Cypriots have already issued 9,500 title deeds for TC property.

There is evidence that not just the ''TRNC'' issued title deeds to properties owned by refugees from the other side of the Green Line. These title deeds stated that the governments supported the concept that the refugees occupying these properties actually owned them. At no time was it said by either government that the ownership of these properties could not be transferred. This was the opinion of the internationally recognised GC government at the time and it was only in 2004 when Cyprus became a member of the EU that a new set of laws took precedence.

How on earth could anyone purchasing these properties pre-April 2004 have known that there was not an exchange agreement in place? There was no response from the north saying that GC refugees could not be given ownership of the TC property they occupied. It made sense and seemed to imply that what they were doing in the north was, although not legally correct, a perfectly valid process now taking place in the south.

Read the article taken from Cyprus Mail Archives, dated May 14th 1998, and make up your own mind about the confusion that reigned before EU laws replaced Cypriot laws in 2004:

“Tempers flared in the House refugee committee yesterday morning as the government’s controversial scheme to issue title deeds for refugee homes came under scrutiny.”

“Committee chairman Aristofanis Georgiou, of Akel… the discussion with a regurgitation of the opposition line that the scheme had been none other than a Clerides ploy to win refugee votes in the run-up to last February’s presidential elections. Thousands of deeds were handed out before the election, and none afterwards, Georgiou stated by way of proof for his claims.”

“Christoforou countered that opposition to the scheme was politically motivated. No refugee had expressed displeasure at receiving a deed for his property, he said. The House had, by blocking the scheme in mid-flow, created an “unjust” situation where some refugees had title deeds and others not.”

Georgiou took exception to this last assertion and intervened to stop for majority decisions of the House plenum.”

“I say the House has torpedoed government efforts to meet its pre-election promises,” he stated, adding that the scheme was a promise Clerides had made as long ago as 1983.”

Charalambos Loizou, of the Nisou refugee housing estate committee, complained that the deeds were worthless anyway as banks and cooperatives would not accept them as collateral.

“Government policy on the refugee title deed issue remains the same,” Michaelides said. “I categorically reject statements that the deeds were given for pre-election reasons.”

“He also dismissed suggestions the scheme played into the hands of the Turkish side by implying that the status quo imposed by the invasion had been accepted.”

Why, when nine-and-a-half thousand people have received deeds till now has no refugee from any party come forward to say the scheme is unacceptable because it goes against national interests?” he asked.”

__________________________________________________________________

Σε απλή μετάφραση ισχυρίζεται πως επι Κληρίδη εδόθησαν τίτλοι ιδιοκτησίας 9,500 τίτλοι ιδιοκτησίας ΤΚ γης η οποία ''απαλλοτριώθηκε'' και μετά διαμοιράστηκε σε πρόσφυγες, πράγμα δηλαδή πέρα για πέρα παράνομο. Το κράτος δεν μπορεί να απαλλοτριώσει επιλεκτικά την περιουσία ιδιώτη και μετά να την ή να την πουλήσει σε τρίτους, Κανονικά ουτε καν κανονική κρατική περιουσία δεν μπορεί να δοθεί έτσι εύκολα σε τρίτους.

Ξέρω σίγουρα πως το κυπριακό κράτος εδώ και χρόνια εκμεταλλεύεται ΤΚ γη με δήθεν απαλλοτριώσεις για να κτίσει έργα κοινής ωφελείας όπως δρόμους σχολεία αεροδρόμια, κτλ.

Μπορώ να καταλάβω αυτή την τακτική αφού

Α) Το κράτος δεν έχει ουσιαστικά κρατική γη - η εκκλησία κατέχει το 1.3 οι Τούρκοι το 37% και πάει λέγοντας.
Β) Και οι Τούρκοι έκαναν το ίδιο στα κατεχόμενα.

Τώρα όμως είναι ποτέ δυνατόν επί κυβέρνησης Κληρίδη να δόθηκαν σε 9,500 πρόσφυγες τίτλοι ιδιοκτησίας ΤΚ περιουσίας σε πρόσφυγες;

Αυτό εκτός από έκδηλα παράνομο, μπορεί να περιπλέξει αφάνταστα την κατάσταση και να αποδυναμώσει την θέση της δικής μας πλευράς τόσο στις διαπραγματεύσεις όσο και στο διεθνές της κύρος.

Γνωρίζει κάποιος περισσότερες πληροφορίες για το θέμα;



Συζήτησα το θέμα σε ένα Αγγλόφωνο blog και προέκυψε ο εξής διάλογος:
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Same old same old. Theres the truth and then the Greek Cyprior
version of the truth. Talk about hypocrisy. Pots and kettles, pots and kettles.

All I can say is their laundry system is superb, they could
sanitise anything.

For Gods sake dont let the truth get in the way of a good story!!!!


The paragraph does appear at first reading to be confusing and I also had to read it twice to be sure I grasped what it said.

My view is this:

1. The law governing the ‘protection’ of TC should take precedence. So if a TC came back to the south he / she would be able to claim their land / property back.

2. In the interim, if a GC is allocated the property the property is capable of being ‘passed’ on till such a time as it is reclaimed by a TC.

3. However, from the 1980’s the GC have been issuing actual titles or promises of actual titles to the TC land. Because this runs contrary to the law protecting the TC land and property it is being done by stealth. If you ask the GC authorities to show what has actually happened to TC in practice they are extremely evasive and will NOT provide the evidence that they have acted in accordance with their own laws.

It is this aspect that the GCs here keep harping on about – saying that TC is ‘untouched’. That is ONLY true in theory and not in fact – hence, the inability of the GC like Kyriacos to provide any evidence that no titles have been issued.

The truth is that the system in the south is open to abuse and corruption and ditto in the north.

Hope the above helps!

In terms of what is happening in the South we need to bear in mind that relatively speaking more GC were displaced than TC so the propotion of land disputes is also skewed.

Further, many of the titles on which the claims of various parties is based were issued by the British and at the time corruption was needless to say endemic (not much has changed).

In addition many TCs did not register their land and property as this was subject to British taxation. The titles therefore are not as ‘clear’ as the GC make out – especially as for them the property history of Cyprus began in 1974! The reality is that from the 1950’s and 1960’s there were many restrictions on TCs imposed by the British and later by the GC majority. Just how reliable and accurate the register of properties is at the Larnaca land registry remains to be seen!

The TCs would do well to collate their historical records to cross check that the register is correct. However, like everything else the TRNC government does – it is often too little and too late! The GCs calim up to 80% of the land in the north – but the truth may be very different if actual titles of the TCs are examined!

Here’s some ‘independent research’ that BOTH the GCs and TCs should read, analyse and digest before commenting!

It is also worthwhile read for anyone who is interested to get a handle on facts as opposed to hyperbole!

http://www.internal-displacement.org/8025708F004CE90B/(httpCountrySummaries)/7D0D770D77A297E4C12573A80050B962?OpenDocument&count=10000

A real breadth of fresh air:)

(Quote)

#2598
  • Moover,that was an excellent link. GCs have always told me that TC property in the south was under the guardianship of the GC government (apart from the land they “appropriated”) and that no title deeds had been issued. Now I learn that it seems that since 1983 it had been the Clerides government’s promise to give OWNERSHIP to GCs and that 9,500 deeds had already been issued by 1998. I had read recently that GC refugees were protesting that more promised title deeds were being held up and your link states that another 15,000 are to be issued soon. Obviously this is being kept quiet during the negotiation as it would weaken the GC position regarding property.

    I doubt very much that many GCs will read the document for fear it would clash with their prejudices. Why learn anything more when you already know everything?

    (Quote)

    #2602
    • You are welcome Malcolm!

      The problem for the TC has always been that the GC are very proactive in their propaganda war and the TC very reactive almost comatosed. If the TC leaders spent less time on their materialistic life style and put in more effort to organise and prepare the TRNC – the situation would be very different to that which exists today!

      The TCs should look to get answers from their government why they have not publicised the hypocrisy of the GCs and not done enough to garner international support for exposing the GC lies!

      The GCs have always been economical with the truth – and rather than dealing with their expletives and broad brush comments when one challenges them for FACTS – they ignore the same with another rant about the TCs or foreigners in the TRNC.

      The TCs should take the information battle to the GC and make it international. The problem is they have half wits in charge who spend too much time on their own ends than that of the TCs. Even with this, the GCs should realise that unless there is a political solution they will never get the land they allege is theirs! “Possession is still 9/10th of the law”!

      Malcolm, can you let me know by email what’s happened to Cyprus44?

      Thanks!



.. indeed ..Thats a nice link you got there moover.. I doubt if you actually read it..
But still a nice link..

Copy paste for you..

”The GRC put all Turkish Cypriot property under the guardianship of the state to protect the properties and to satisfy the housing needs of Greek Cypriot IDPs. It allocated the right to use Turkish Cypriot properties free of charge to some 25,000 IDPs pending a political solution to the conflict, and took responsibility for the maintenance of these homes (IDMC interview, March 2009).”

”Families living in Turkish Cypriot homes or properties built on Turkish Cypriot land will not be eligible; they will instead receive a plot of government land in the district they currently live in. This is because under GRC law, dispossessed Turkish Cypriots continue to be regarded as the owners of their properties and are in principle entitled to recover property lost as a result of the conflict. Although Greek Cypriots living in Turkish Cypriot homes have security of tenure and can bequeath their rights over these homes, they feel their tenure is uncertain due to reports of Turkish Cypriots returning and Greek Cypriots being told to move out”

So how about that.. you have actually given your selves your precious proofs that NO tc land was ever sold or Given away..
…just like i was saying all along..

Again take a look on the map..

http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss277/gli_koullis/MAPSWEETCYPRUS.jpg

All the South part is mountains!

well YES! the greek Government with 200.000 refugees -having no other choice- allowed some GC to build there a -temporarily- refuge pending a political solution to the conflict, while putting all TC properties under guardianship so that no one can grab it and sell it to any ORAMs etc. etc. if Turks weren’t such greedy and actually took a little bit lees flat land we might actually HAD A CHOICE!

but..
http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss277/gli_koullis/MAPSWEETCYPRUS.jpg
Turkish justice..

And even so..

There is a small deference between apportioning loot to turkish settlers and building a shielder for your refugees while protecting the tc land from embezzlers.

”TRNC authorities distributed vacated Greek Cypriot properties to Turkish Cypriot IDPs and other citizens, to whom they later awarded ownership. They attempted to provide IDPs with properties of similar value to those which they left behind, in return for renouncing their title to the latter property in favour of TRNC.”

oooohhh.. soo sweet and generous.. trnc is so magnanimous.. awarding ownerships and houses that did not build or legally own.. to ….other citizens!
. I just cannot believe the level of your hypocrisy..
Guys YOU FUCKED US UP just admit it you Took our land you raped our wives you won the bloody war!!.. what happened to you? You used to be so cool and proud all those years claiming that the cyprus problem was solved… Killing anyone who tried to cross the borders..
http://agrino.org/humrights/hr06/isaak2.JPG
35 years later just when we have regain our feet and flourishing financially.. Now you have decided you want …a ‘’solution” Turkey elected Talat for you and Davoutoglou is bullshitting europe about how much he wants to ”resolve” the problem..

I ll tell you a solution right here right now Mr.Davoutoglou. You Give us back 20% of the ground. You Keep 20% of Cyprus for you. Even though TC are 18% of the total population, and we will recognize your ”trnc”.. we will even agree to let you inside Eu. you will keep your Guarantor powers on your TURKISH side we will be free and independent. You will be flooded with Kurds, we will be flooded with Pakistanish and both live happily ever after like Srek.

Now about the post
”Greek Cypriots have already issued 9,500 title deeds for TC property”

Listen boys for the last time..

i am a refugee i know from first hand that such titles were not given.
Pre-election promises yes, they were given.. lots LOTS of promises were given.. But actual title deeds.. no.. AND Even if Kleredes gave title deeds there not VALID. They are illegal. simple as that.

You think Kleredes Tassos or Denktash are above international law and human rights?

No they are not..

You better get use to it if you wanna be a european and a world recognized country that respects human rights. If not.. uganda or ”’trnc”’

No one can take anyones land by force no matter what. yes.. is that simple

NO MATTER WHAT such an act can be legitimate in the eyes of justice. The thieve the pirate the conqueror will always be illegal. and with ”..”

Εvidence:

Some jews few years ago asked from germany for their properties back.. (while JEWS actually are illegally holding palestinian properties as we talk) even so.. Germans respected their human rights and gave them back their properties.

Why they did so and Turkey refuses?

well
…you tell me..

(Quote)

#2610
  • K, if a sign said “no parking here but you can park if you have a permit” then you would park because according to you the sign said “you can park.”

    I do like your firm “titles (deeds) were not given” followed by “even if Kleredes gave title deeds there not VALID.” Plus totally ignoring the current problem involving 15,000 GCs protesting about not being given promised title deeds.

    I’ve got a feeling that that Greek ECJ judge involved in the Orams case, you know the one with the medal from Papadopolous, was a bit like you and he taught all the other judges about the CypProb, leaving out all the inconvenient bits. He probably started by saying, “trust me I’m a judge, I never lie.” Problem was his CypProb teacher was Papadopolous.

    6,000,000 Jews got their property back in Germany????

    The Czechs will not be giving the Sudeland Germans back their property taken in 1945.

    The reason we don’t get many GC comments here is because we like to back up our opinion using credible information.

  • -if so- Title deeds that are not valid

    (Quote)

    #2668
  • Ps.. my link talks about the 8,500 GC who BUILD in tc land and later on…… were PROMISED title deeds.
    So
    how on earth since only 8,500 refugees builded on TC land you claim that 9,500 were given title deeds a decade earlier?

    ????it makes no sense..

    I guess you are referring to the Title deeds that where given to 9,500 refugees that builded on state land, not TC land.

    Those 8,500 who builded in TC where promised title deed but never given any.

    Some GC politicians claim that Cyprus Government either ows to pay the TC money for the use of their properties by refugees or expropriate their land and give them a refund so that the GC won’t have to demolish their properties in a future solution and can legally obliged to a title deed.

    Again as you can see there is a huge deference between the approach of the 2 communities.

    The one community does it best to respect human rights and international law hoping for a reunification while the other side does it best to avoid all responsibilities and obligations ignoring ALL human rights of the other side. Hoping for a partition.

    If after all of this you still haven’t seen the true goals of your leadership (that is to make up excuses by pointing fingers and throwing mud to the other side) then i am afraid you are just choosing to believe whatever suits u mate..

    Eroglu even blamed us for the float of Morphou for christ or allahs name..

    I ll provide you with some more info.

    If you are a refugee and you go to a bank for a lawn Banks all over the world actually accept the Title deeds of gc refugees in the North and TC in the south as mortgage. But do not accept Title deeds of STATE land that where given to refugees that builded in -state land- NOT yet alone title deeds of tc land! Got it? Not even GC state land title deeds are recognized by international banks/ But in contrast Title deeds before 74 work just fine.

    And further more some banks went as far and confiscated title deeds of Refugees that couldn’t pay their debt.

    ..

    (Quote)

    #2671
  • So in 1998 they were arguing about giving title deeds to state land. Strangely, the refugees discovered that bank would not give them mortgages on land transferred from the State. In the UK, the government transferred state owned housing to people living in them and they had no trouble selling them or mortgaging them. Your INTERPRETATION is unconvincing.


  • Kyriacos:


    Malcolm mate you said:
    ”So in 1998 they were arguing about giving title deeds to state land. Strangely, the refugees discovered that bank would not give them mortgages on land transferred from the State. In the UK, the government transferred state owned housing to people living in them and they had no trouble selling them or mortgaging them. Your INTERPRETATION is unconvincing. ”

    yet is correct and true..

    And the reason why that happened is because legally The state cannot Just Give away land to a select amount of people.

    Its again illegal, and the reason is because otherwise any congressman or any other individual placed in a key position could abuse his power and transfer State land to his kids or.. voters..

    Thats why even those Title deeds are ILLEGAL .

    Imagine how illegal is to give TC title deeds.

    Such an act in any western country State Law is just INVALID!

    .So to sum up and conclude our wonderful conversation, EVEN if a corrupted politician existed in Cyprus and Gave TC title Deeds to GC, his Act is not recognized by the international law and it is there for ILLEGAL. The property still belongs to the TC LEGAL owner until his consent for such transaction to be made.

    END OF STORY. If you my dear friend Malcolm happened to be an illegal property owner your self I am sincerely deeply sorry that you got into this mess.

    I truly hope the Turkish government bale you out of this. Because in my opinion its 100% their fault.

    They could have just build houses in TC land … but NO they wanned to make things more Complicated by involving foreigners.
    They needed to build and sell on GC land without even bother FAKE expropriating the damn thing or at least give a fake penny to the legal owner who has lost EVERYTHING back in 1974. Not just a house and a field. Everything. Refugees left their houses with just their cloths on.

    A tragedy that is. But not us to blame for.

    We feel ashamed for the acts of our ancestors back in the 60s but you can’t just punish 200,000 of innocent people for the sins of Few.

    (Quote)

    #2701
    • K, nice of you to accuse the GC government of corruption. I need say no more on that matter.

      You really haven’t got the faintest what the Orams judges decided was illegal. It was trespass not ownership. There’s your problem you’ve had it drummed into your head so many times that ex-pats have stolen your land that you can’t see that:

      Turkey stole it
      TCs sold it
      Ex-pats trespassed on it

      (Quote)

      #2710
      • I have not accused GC side for corruption Malcolm stop falling so low to the point of distorting my comments.

        For the last time. Republic of Cyprus is not an illegal regime, it does plays by the rules, we are forced to play by the rules by International Laws etc etc.
        http://www.cyprus.gov.cy/MOI/CitizensCharter/CitizensCharter.nsf/dmlcriteria_en/dmlcriteria_en?OpenDocument
        Have a look,
        Now in the impossible case that 10 years ago a corrupted GC politician did actually existed and exploited some TC land. That is just an illegal act of that particular individual nothing more nothing less, TC land still legally belongs to TC and after a settlement All TC will be able to enjoy their property.

        Plus you as like ANY tc can call them at this number: Tel 22818820 -22818852-22818848-22818854 and ask for more informations about his properties. I live abroad now so i cannot contact them.

        http://www.cyprus.gov.cy/MOI/CitizensCharter/CitizensCharter.nsf/dmltkprologue_en/dmltkprologue_en?OpenDocument

        I am shocked though with your total lack of culture for Privacy policies.
        Imagine if Roc or any other Democratic Country whatsoever had a list with the properties of its citizens that are above all a protected minority. -online-. Sorry mate but thats not transparency thats proclamation for murder.

        (Quote)

        #2716
  • Malcolm Channing: So in 1998 they were arguing about giving title deeds to state land. Strangely, the refugees discovered that bank would not give them mortgages on land transferred from the State. In the UK, the government transferred state owned housing to people living in them and they had no trouble selling them or mortgaging them. Your INTERPRETATION is unconvincing.

    Yet True..



    (Quote)

    #2698
  • Malcolm Channing: he government transferred state owned housing to people living in them and they had no trouble selling them or mortgaging them. Your INTERPRETATION is unconvincing

    yet true..

    (Quote)

    #2692
    • kyriacos:
      yet true..

      I have a government official saying “nine-and-a-half thousand people have received deeds” you have a belief system. You don’t have any proof do you, just a belief that Klerides was lying when he said that GC refugees, like TCs, would be issued title deeds. It was a mess, K, they did their best. Now there is an EU mess…

      (Quote)

      #2697
  • Moover: “ POSSESSION IS 9/10TH OF THE LAW – JUST TATOO THIS TO YOUR BRAIN IF YOU CAN FIND IT AND ALL WILL BE WELL:))) “

    I hope it’s not tattooed on the Orams’ brain or they’ll be calling back for a refund!

    (Quote)

    #2677
    • GR, I think you’ll find that the property the Orams trespassed on is not going back to Mr A but is now back in the possession of the TRNC government. How could the Orams ever give back what they never legally possessed, according to international law? That’s why the case had nothing to do with settling the Cyprus property problem.

      (Quote)

      #2682
    • Get Real:

      Don’t think the Oramses have not been ‘taken good care of’.

      Let’s put it this way. They will go through the motions to satisfy the UK court that they are not in contempt of court. The TRNC will refuse to implement the judgement and will in all probability refer it to the Property Commission in the TRNC. They will in turn award some compensation to Mr. A. The process will take time.

      Mr A will not be having a G & T anytime soon on the terraces of the Lapta villa – so what does that mean in terms of ‘possession’?

      Has Mr A obtained ’satisfaction’ in terms of the ROC judgement? I think not!

      This was a test case – and as such it will set out not only what the GC can do to try and get a judgement enforced – but also what TCs and others can do to prevent such enforcement!

      Touche! “POSSESSION IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE 9/10TH OF THE LAW”

      If the GC want real access to their alleged property then the best way is to find a POLITICAL SOLUTION TO A POLITICAL PROBLEM! Until then…. “P I 9/10 O T L”

      QED :)

      (Quote)

      #2714
      • What a load of crap mover you have really crossed any sort of ethical line here..

        Apostolides is not stupid he knows he ain’t getting his properties back
        Furthermore mr A. is one of those GC who actually voted Yes in the referendum,

        He actually stated after the court judgement:

        I hope there is a final political solution that respects human rights. I hope we won’t make this decision, the reason we lost the great goal of reunification and reconciliation of our island.

        …so watch your mouth.

        (Quote)

        #2717
  • Moover: but you cannot change the facts on the ground and that is the real source of your frustration.

    Yes, and you cannot change the fact that despite the use of all those weapons and gun power to change the facts on the ground by force not even a square inch of GC land is legally yours..
    that seems to be the real source of your frustration to me.

    (Quote)

    #2673
    • Kyriacos:

      I have not a singel frustration with respet to your concept of legality. Seems like you have a very narrow view of what is legal. When GC were using ‘pass control’ laws to prevent TC moving from one area to another inside Cyprus in the 1960’s – it might have been ‘legal’ for the GC to do this as they passed the laws and enofrced them against the TC – but that didn’t make it any better – did it?

      The Cyprus problem is POLITICAL – a fact you simply either cannot comprehend or choose to show your ignorance in respect of it! Either way – you concept of legality doesn’t affect me in the least – not an iota of frustration!

      Your frustration is clear for all to see:

      “POSSESSION IS 9/10TH OF THE LAW” and which by definition means you only have 1/10th of the law on your side!

      Must be very frustrating when for 35 years + you alledge you have land but cannot do much about it!

      Even more so, when you claim to be so well educated and developed that your GC government and business don’t obey your own laws in trading TC land!

      Seems like hypocrisy (a nice Greek word) seems to be your way of life!

      When will you get it? The solution is POLITICAL and NOT LEGAL?

      Maybe your great great grandchildren will understand better than you do…and they will lament your intransigence to find a political solution!

      Sorry – but your argument does not hold water:)

      POSSESSION IS 9/10TH OF THE LAW – JUST TATOO THIS TO YOUR BRAIN IF YOU CAN FIND IT AND ALL WILL BE WELL:)))

      (Quote)

      #2675
      • Ok mate listen.

        First of all the education joke went too far

        I did not claim that we are a higher race or smth.

        But you Brits tend to underestimate GC and consider them some sort of uncivilized savages probably because as tourists you hang around with a lot of taxi-drivers so as a result you think that all Cypriots have curly hair a mustache and wear golden jewelry but IN FACT according to EUROSTAT and not me:

        http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss277/gli_koullis/Picture28-1.jpg
        http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss277/gli_koullis/Picture29-1.jpg
        http://www.cbs.nl/en-GB/menu/themas/onderwijs/publicaties/artikelen/archief/2009/2009-2806-wm.htm

        Cypriots are a highly educated people after all..

        -whatever that means-

        I guess educated people tend to claim their rights.

        Lets leave it up to that.

        …………………………………………………………………

        When GC were using ‘pass control’ laws to prevent TC moving from one area to another inside Cyprus in the 1960’s –
        …………………………………………………………………

        of course i am not proud for some of the stuff that my ancestors did, in fact i hate those people more than you do. But a crime is not inherited by DNA. I am not responsible for their crimes, and furthermore my family was on the other side of the battle and fought WITH the Turkish cypriots. And actually the majority of GC back then did not even do anything to anyone, they were themselves victims. Do you even know how many GC died in that era from GC-extremist? NO! OFCOURSE YOU DONT. You are just coming here with your Transcendentalism while infact you know nothing. While you ignore the role that imperialistic Britain played into the Cyprus problem by dividing and ruling. AND What sort of justice is this? Τhat sentences a whole Country for the crimes of few? With this logic we must punish all Germans for the Crimes of few NAZIS or ALL Muslims for the crimes of Few Talibans, Or All British for the Crimes of your bloody Queen? How about that? listen to you.. GOD PLEASE SAVE THE QUEEN! sense of righteousness my ass.. if thats your way of thinking or your sense of justice – excuse me, i refuse to join you. This kind of authoritarian attitude -power of the Gun- is what created Nazis-Talibans-Eoka-Tmt. You Would Have probably Been a Nazi yourself.

        http://www.okcupid.com/tests/take?testid=17675020579094199926

        >>>…………………………………………..

        ”’it might have been ‘legal’ for the GC to do this as they passed the laws and enofrced them against the TC – but that didn’t make it any better – did it?”’

        …………………………………………….>>>

        First of all we are not talking about A GC law that prevents A person from illegally taking of another person’s property without that person’s freely-given consent.

        This is The Universal Declaration of Human Rights we are talking about.
        http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/
        Yes that little piece of toilet paper that all western civilization is based upon.

        The right of A person to born free exist and own a property that no authority what soever no matter what can take away by force.

        And of course we cannot accept our constitution in a future ‘’solution” to the problem just ignore this part:

        ”Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.”

        …like Annan plan did.

        In order some Turkish military lunatics wont go nuts with military coups in Turkey.

        If you wanna join hands with the third world. Go ahead. I rather stick to my western values no matter what.

        I know you really don’t give a fuck..
        but put yourself in our place for a moment.

        A Greek Guy with a gun and a mustache comes in Chelsea and takes your house with the excuse that your Great Great Grant father was a colonial officer who fucked his Great Great Great Grant mother. There is no Police in London any more. Great Britain has collapsed a long time ago due to Gordon Brown’s re election.

        Are you gonna be just fine with it?
        Aren’t you gonna try and use every other legal mean to take your property back?

        Of-course you would
        So get off our case.

        And i am not saying here that is RIGHT or ethical for ORAMS or all the Brits who builded on GC land, to demolish their houses.. (although legally is called fence) I do feel sorrow for those people..

        BUT at LEAST .. TURKEY needs to stop exploiting Greek Property without even a legal expropriation and a decent refund of the Refugee.

        You can’t just Go in with Guns Take something and then SELL IT!

        YOU JUST CANT!

        And if you JUST DO IT .. cause you CAN .. then you are an ASS and its WRONG.

        AND YOU MUST PAY FOR IT!

        if you don’t like how things work, go to bloody Africa with a gun mate.

        (Quote)

        #2691
      • Possession is 9/10s of the law – Typical barrack room lawyer crap.

        Possession is 9/10s of the law – IN A LEGALLY RECOGNISED STATE

        The lengths some people will go to to justify their criminal acts leaves me speechless.



        • Jerry:

          Don’t know where you come from and really don’t care. But in case you missed the last 2000+ years of human history that is just how it is! America didn’t belong to the British or French – Australia didn’t belong to Britain….need I go on?

          Perhaps you also have had a wonderful Greek based education?

          Possession is 9/10th of the law in any system – not in a system that you happen to consider to be ‘legally recognised’. Perhaps you ought to take up some reading on International Law and understand the concept of ‘Customary International Law’ then maybe just maybe you’ll understand why ‘possession is and has always been 9/10th of the law.

          Of course there is another route to finding out – simply wait and see what happens in Cyprus – and when there is a ‘POLITICAL’ solution – you will see what is meant by the phrase ‘POSSESSION IS 9/10TH OF THE LAW’!

          The ignorance of some people leaves me speechless…. lol :)

          (Quote)

          #2705
  • yiannis savvides: Emir , Cyprus is and has been for the last 10 thousand plus years of its history , CYPRUS.It is neither Greek nor Turkish.The distance that you make a point of is nonsense , if distance was the criteria for determining who owns waht the world would be in a proper mess.To hell with Greece to hell with Turkey the cancers that have afflicted our nation and our people. I’m a Cypriot FIRST, are you also ? (Quote)

    I used to be a great believer of been Cypriot, till the other half of Cypriots with with Eoka drive me from Cyprus, never to return, since than I become a Turk. South of the Cyprus, is a foreign country to me.

    (Quote)

    #2663
  • A civilized UN managed repatriation program for all Ottoman remnants and later Anatolian settlers of Cyprus, is the most sensible and humane solution to the Cyprus problem.

    (Quote)

    #2659
    • You gotta love old Unreal – he pulls no punches.
      Get rid of them and give us their land is his motto.
      At least he is honest about how he feels. I dont like
      it but at least it gives us fellow KKTC dwellers a true
      picture of what we are up against.

      (Quote)

      #2736
  • ”The reason we don’t get many GC comments here is because we like to back up our opinion using credible information. ”

    ”’YOU CALIM TO HAVE THE SUPERIOR EDUCATION AND DEVELOPED WORLD SYSTEM – THEN PROVIDE THE EVIDENCE AND SHOW NOT A SINGLE PIECE OF TC LAND IN THE SOUTH WAS SOLD TO GC OR ISSUED GC TITLES!”’

    so… in your book of justice its on the accused side to prove his innocence by giving detailed evidence otherwise he will be considered guilty? Well.. i thought in the civilized world the prosecutor is supposed to prove that this man is really guilty by providing actual evidence..

    Turkish justice.

    Hey!..

    how about instead of vicious unbased claims in the headlines of your articles
    ”Greek Cypriots have already issued 9,500 title deeds for TC property”
    actually provide some evidence in the text below for those accusations?

    Remember!!
    If you Do … i am on YOUR SIDE!
    The value of Human rights is above my ethnic interests.

    (Quote)

    #2656
    • K, we published a Cyprus Mail article from 1998 (quoted in Hellenic Resources Network) saying that 9500 GCs had been given title deeds. It quotes a political debate. That’s all the evidence we have. Find me a equally credible source saying that HRN made it all up or Cyprus Mail made it all up. Get in touch with those publications not us. I have no access to primary evidence from 1998 in Cyprus, perhaps you do. In the UK we have Hansard, a primary source open to everyone. Perhaps you have access in the south to a similar publication?

      (Quote)

      #2657
    • Kyriacos:

      If you are unwilling or unable to provide evidence for your assertions then they are only assertions and nothing more!

      GC you have claimed “have not sold or issued titles on one TC property in the south”.

      All what has been asked is prove it!

      It is not about victims or non-victims…it is about evidence and facts to back up your assertions.

      Now I can understand that you can show me ‘evidence’ of how great your education system is by “googling” it on the Internet – and yet on the fundamental argument of whether or not GC have sold TC land or issued titles you are surprisingly coy to present the evidence.

      My contention is that you cannot supply that evidence because you know as we all know including the UN, EU and even the ROC government that TC has been sold and GC have been issued titles to such land!

      No doubt as the registry you ‘trust’ is in the South – any host of shanningans can be done there and no one will be any the wiser!

      As I have said, as much as I admire your argument on ‘human rights’ – it is still a naive argument as this situation is a POLITICAL problem, requiring a political solution. It is not a simple civil land dispute between a couple of Cypriots!

      The sooner you understandd that the sooner you will realise that the ONLY way forward is a negotiated settlement. Going through the courts may produce some of yesterdays headlines but they will not alter one iota the facts on the ground!

      The choice is yours – negotiate or vegitate -don’t look back in 10. 20, 30 years from now and wonder what might have been! Don’t let your grand kids lament the actions of their forefathers in failing to move forward on a sustainable long term political settlement!

      :)

      (Quote)

      #2711
  • Yawn…Yannnissss!

    1. I have no property interest in the TRNC, so as usual your presumption is wrong!

    2. All claims are ‘alleged’ unless proved and accepted either by a court of law or through a political process!

    3. I ‘tease’ you with your name as all your comments that I have read are repetitions based on hearsay and GC propaganda rather than on facts and of course your use of expletives makes it clear that you know you have lost the argument.

    4. As far as ‘intelligence’ or the lack thereof is concerned I am sure anyone reading your rants and my comments will make up their own minds!

    5. When, if ever will you PROVIDE THE EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIM THAT NOT ONE PIECE OF TC LAND HAS BEEN SOLD OR BEEN ISSUED GC TITLE?

    6. I will look into buying in the TRNC as it seems to offer good value for money – another question you failed to answer is whether you will join me on the terrace of that new purchase for a drink?

    Of course you will rant and rave no doubt with expletives – but you cannot change the facts on the ground and that is the real source of your frustration.

    That no matter what you or other GC nationalist say, possession is still 9/10th of the law – and you do not have possession!

    Touche :)

    (Quote)

    #2645
    • ABSOLUTE RUBBISH , MOOVER !
      There is nothing alleged about property of G/Cs in the occupied lands still legally theirs. Have you heard of the recent EC Judgement and the the decision of the Royal Courts of Justice to uphold the EC Judgement ? Perhaps not !
      Let me also define the word “expletive” It does not include “Plonker” amongst the many definitions.
      The fact that you appear on the whole to be utterly ignorant of Cypriot history is indicative of your limited intelligence old boy !
      Now get back to reading about the thousands of deeds issued on T/C properties in the RoC. I will not dissassociate the RoC from something with which it has never been associated with , ie stealing T/C properties.
      I shall most certainly join you for a drink anywhere you chose !
      You keep mentioning that possession is 9/10ths of the law , is that so , the train robbers didn’t qualify !
      An overused proverb that is as near to the truth as the “trnc” is near to recognition !
      You are a Plonker Sir !

      (Quote)

      #2649
      • You are correct Yawnnis I have never seen you swear in your postings. We have established that
        you are repetitive but thats because you forget
        a lot, not your fault, the years do that to you.
        You do hurl abuse about a bit too.

        You keep telling us about your superior intellect and your inabliity to be wrong – now there you go too far. Self praise is no recommendation.

        Now about your new scarf, I thought a nice
        pattern on it – how about red with a white
        crescent moon and………..

        (Quote)

        #2651
        • Polly , you are a waste of time !
          Keep to your knitting , it appears that you lack the prerequisite criteria required in order to debate with the likes of me ! Intelligence old girl , just like looks you either have or you don’t . Its crystal clear that you possess neither ,
          an old ..bug in my opinion !
          Carry on knitting old girl !

          (Quote)

          #2681
      • Yawn….Yawn…Yawnnniiisss!

        Your self delusion is now complete.

        When you make statements that you cannot prove you slip in to your normal mode of slanging off anyone who challeneges you!

        By the way – you should read your own postings the “F” word is an expletive – so much for being so ‘highly educated” – perhaps just another delusion!

        You can use the word ‘plonker’ as often as you like Yawnnnniiisss, it matters little when everyone who reads these postings can decide for themselves who the real ‘plonker’ is:))

        As far as I am concerned – I will look to buy some TRNC property just because it seems god value. Maybe you can let me know if you have some property here and I will go and specifically look for that :) )

        So when I do buy ‘your’ property – will you take me up on having a drink on the terrace? :) )) LOL:)))

        “POSSESSION IS 9/10TH OF THE LAW”

        Or will you still be mouthing off about GC land in the TRNC?

        Since you are unable (not surprising) or unwilling (coward) to provide the evidence of your claims that not one piece of TC land has been sold – we should assume as everything else coming from people like you that it is just more hot air!

        As for name calling – nice try – but you’ll need to do much better if you think you’ll put me off from stating the facts – you know – that which your argument is totally devoid of – and of course – when someone claims something to be true and cannot prove it – maybe just maybe therein lies a real ‘plonker’:)) lol:))))

        (Quote)

        #2662
  • Just to remind those nationalist Greeks:
    Fact:
    Cyprus is not Greek.
    Cyprus never ever has been a Greek island.
    Cyprus never owned and run Greeks.
    Ottomans did run Cyprus for almost 400 years.
    Cyprus is 38 miles from Turkish coast, will never be a Greek island in Mediterranean in million years (Crete 1913 NEVER again)
    GET OVER IT

    (Quote)

    #2639
    • Cyprus is not Greek. .. (agree)
      Cyprus never ever has been a Greek island … (Yes but the majority of the island were always greeks)
      Cyprus never owned and run Greeks. (this does not really make any sense but i ll give it a try.. in ancient greece there was not such thing as Greek state there were just GREEKS
      The Athenians The Spartans The MAcedonians The Trojans The Cypriots ETC ETC ETC.
      The term GREECE as a state with a flag etc etc. is relatively a modern term.
      Nevertheless Cyprus used to be habited by greeks since the end of times..

      Ottomans did run Cyprus for almost 400 years. (..Yes… they DID.. the Ottomans.. not TURkey.. so did Alexander the Great .. so did the Byzantium empire So did the Romans So did The ARABS so did the Brits.. and many more..)

      My country: Cyprus was never Free Even today. I am not Free.

      Cyprus is 38 miles from Turkish coast, will never be a Greek island in Mediterranean in million years

      Who the fuck told you we wanna be reduced to a greek island while we can be FREE and Independent country like anyone else?

      (Crete 1913 NEVER again)

      You do realize that Turks left Crete due to an exchange of population between Greece and Turkey?
      You do realize that Greeks left Ismir and Istanbul due to that agreement as well do you?

      Who the fuck told you that we want TC out of Cyprus?

      WE WANT TURKISH troops OUT OF CYPRUS you fascist pig.
      We wanna be free and independent like all the other countries in this fucking world.

      So piss off.

      (Quote)

      #2658
      • Up to your usual level I see. Your English
        is excellent – a pity you have to use the worst
        of our vocabulary.

        It is sad that you cannot make an argument without
        loosing your temper. I bet you were a bully at school. Now its time to grow up sonny.

        Sweariacos 1/10 can do better

        (Quote)

        #2678
        • Don’t get me wrong mate..
          I do curse a lot in my everyday life as well.. sorry can’t help it Thats why i did not become a politician..

          Maybe I ll one day go to a therapist and then become one.. ;)


          #2694
      • emir Says

        here is the post:
        Get Real!
        24/01/2010 at 2:15 pmA civilized UN managed repatriation program for all Ottoman remnants and later Anatolian settlers of Cyprus, is the most sensible and humane solution to the Cyprus problem.

        Here is another:
        House of Representatives (consisting of Greek Cypriots only at the time) voted unanimously on June 27, 1967 that “it will not defer the struggle, presently carried out with the solidarity of all Greeks, until the union, without any intermediary stations, of the whole unified Cyprus with motherland Greece is implemented” (Minutes of the House of Representatives 1966-1967, page 1274).

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